Japanese Breakfast: Kimchi, Candy, & Magical Flavors

Our senses can be conduits for mystical experiences — especially when it comes to taste. In this episode, Michelle Zauner (a.k.a. Japanese Breakfast) talks about connecting with her ancestors through kimchi. And self-proclaimed candy monk Jared Gold shares how consuming sugar can help generate spiritual and emotional growth.

Michelle Zauner: And so I needed some of that like spiritual sort of stuff and someone to just say, like, it's OK for, like, not everything to make sense and to, like, lean into mystery, you know, and allow yourself to have that. Something that my dad got was like, "Put your feelings into like a stone." Like, sometimes it's just weird stuff like that that like grounds you. 

[Music]

Michelle Tea: This is Your Magic, a Spotify Original from Parcast Studios and your Magic Media. I’m Michelle Tea.

Today on the show, we’re going to hang out with Michelle Zauner, the creative force behind Japanese Breakfast. She’s also author of the memoir Crying in H Mart — maybe you read the viral New Yorker essay, now you can grab the book because it comes out this month. We’re going to talk about dreams, and music, and, of course food, of course. 

After that, we’re off to Salt Lake City, to visit with kind-hearted candy monk Jared Gold, a candy maker who mixes meditation, intention, and sugar to trigger mystical delight.

And finally, I’m going to share with you a really great popcorn recipe. I mean a spell. I mean a popcorn recipe. I mean, well, either way it’s magic okay. Stay with us.

[Music]

Michelle Tea: Did you know that every single day, at least once a day, you create a ritual? You use tools and ingredients that have been engaged by witches for hundreds of years. And I’ll bet cash money that most of you listening do this not once a day, but twice, three times at least. Even more, if you consider snacks.

Yes, my snacktivists, you always knew that snacks are magic, and you’re actually more on the nose than you could have guessed. I’m talking about food — cooking. The stirring of a holy cauldron, and in this case the cauldron may just contain, like oatmeal. Or coffee grounds. Maybe some soup. Witchcraft may very well have begun in the kitchen — enacted by women charged with cooking the family gruel, utilizing the hearth for both sustenance and enchantment, and often blurring the acts. Since we’re feeding ourselves multiple times a day, we might as well take advantage of that opportunity to cast some spells.

Using spices and herbs, working with things that have grown in the earth, it’s powerful. We take these spells into our body, and they nourish us. Toss some cinnamon on a piece of toast and manifest abundance. If you feel stuck in a rut, like you need to hit the reset button on your vibe, you can take hot sauce, or cayenne or red pepper flakes into your body and ask the universe to spice things up. It’s as easy as that. When you realize that food is magic, every day becomes a series of delicious rituals.

Now, let’s join author and musician Michelle Zauner, a.k.a. Japanese Breakfast.

[Music]

Michelle Tea: Hi Michelle, thanks for being on the show. Your music is rather dreamy and I'm wondering if you remember what you dreamt last night and what your relationships with your dreams might be. 

Michelle Zauner: I think I usually remember dreams where, like, my mom appears because it's, like, really exciting for me. And like, I feel like my mom is communicating with me in some way, like from the afterlife.

It's really intense because, you know, you always want to fall asleep right away when you wake up because you want to go back to the place, because in this way, it's the closest that you have to spending time with them. I actually wrote a whole chapter in my book about dreams that I had about my mom after she passed away because it was a really important part of my grieving process, I feel like, and I kept having these dreams where I would find her and she was just like lying down somewhere. I would always be like, "I thought you were dead." And she would be like, "No, no, I'm just laying here." And I was like, "oh, my God, I have to tell Dad, like, he's gonna be so excited you were just, like, laying here this whole time." And yeah, I had a lot of dreams like that where like my mom lived in, like, a house next door or something, or she was like laying down in my backyard. She was like sick still, but she was like still alive after she passed away and that there was like some way that we could, like, you know, take care of her still or we were like neglecting her somehow. 

Michelle Tea: Did caring for your mom during her death process impact your spirituality? 

Michelle Zauner: Yeah, it did. You know, I've never been. I feel like being someone who is raised on the West Coast, like in Eugene, Oregon, which is like a really crunchy. 

Michelle Tea: It is so crunchy. 

Michelle Zauner: It's like a very crunchy city and, you know, like Reiki and meditation and astrology, all of the, like, kind of hippie-dippy stuff is pretty mainstream there. So I think that, like, my way of rebelling in some way was to be this like, cold-hearted, like science bitch or something. 

Michelle Tea: Yeah. 

Michelle Zauner: But as I got older and, you know, I just like I've never been a religious person. I wasn't raised religious. And I, you know, kind of like scoffed at spirituality for a long time. And then I realized when my mom passed away, it's very, very lonely to not have any of that kind of stuff to lean on, even ... Even at the smallest level of like when I would leave flowers on my mom's grave, like, I needed to feel like somehow she knew I was doing that. It wasn't enough for me to just know that this was something I was doing for myself to commemorate her. And so I actually started seeing a union analyst for a short period of time. And so I needed some of that like spiritual sort of stuff and someone to just say, like, it's OK for, like, not everything to make sense and to, like, lean into mystery, you know, and allow yourself to have that. Something that my dad got was like, "Put your feelings into like a stone." Like, sometimes it's just weird stuff like that that like grounds you. 

Michelle Tea: Have you come across any particular ideas about, like, the afterlife that feel particularly attractive to you? 

Michelle Zauner: Yeah. I mean, I think that a big thing is just like that somehow, like my mom knows what's going on. Which like seems so like ... I know when I say it out loud I feel like so bashful about it still. But I had such like, you know, for so many years, I had really struggled to live as a working artist. And, you know, it wasn't until after she passed away that all of my success as a creative started really blossoming. And it's hard to not feel like as an only child, you know, when my mom was a homemaker, that she's not like looking out for me in some way But I just gotta, you know. I have to, like, leave space for that because it makes me feel better to just think like my mom somehow had a part in, like making sure I was OK. And it just really feels that way. Because when my mom passed away, a lot of people would say to me, "Oh, she's in a better place. She's in heaven." Well, I don't believe in that. But I also don't want to believe, you know, in just cold science and technology and not leave some space for, like, a kinder imagining of what else could be going on. You know? 

Michelle Tea: Do you, is there any, do you feel any connection with, I don't know, other folks from your, from your family who have passed or even ancestors, the concept of having ancestors? Does that resonate for you at all? 

Michelle Zauner: Yeah, I think especially being half Korean, I got really into cooking Korean food and particularly making kimchi, which is like this very ancient practice that my mom never made her own kimchi, but like my grandmother did. Even though I didn't know that at the time and, you know, my ancestors did these types of things and it feels like this very ancient, also therapeutic practice for me to learn how to do and involves a lot of patience and reflection while you're doing it. It's very tactile. So, yeah, I do things like that to kind of commemorate those ancestors of mine. 

Michelle Tea: That's really cool. I love that your mother didn't make it, but you're like you're picking back up to tradition. 

Michelle Zauner: Yeah, she would definitely think it was really funny. 

Michelle Tea: You know, you wrote this incredible piece, "Crying in the H Mart," and in that — it was in The New Yorker — and you talk about the H Mart food court being a beautiful, holy place. And I love the putting of that sort of sacred lens on something as every day as a food court. And I just wonder if you could elaborate on that and if there are any other sort of, you know, ordinary spots that feel holy to you. 

Michelle Zauner: Yeah, actually, a couple days ago, I went to the H Mart in Paramus, New Jersey, on the way up here and I didn't cry. But then, like, I drove like a mile away to go to IKEA. And there was like this Korean family. I think, like, they must have been shopping for, like, the son was like going to college or something. They were like getting him like a frying pan and like the son was like, "Oh, no, mom, it's like, you know, it needs to be shorter." And then she was just kind of like trailing behind him, like, "Oh, shorter?" And she was just so, you know, I just miss... I just started crying like, so hard. I was with my husband and I just he's like knew right away what it was just like that Korean accent. I just feel like, you know, to not have like a mom or like some kind of parent that, like, loves you that much. That is the only person in the world that cares, like what kind of frying pan you get. 

Michelle Tea: Oh god. I’m gonna cry. Yeah.

Michelle Zauner: To watch her just like, you know, cater to him in this very like Korean way. I just lost it. And I guess maybe like part of it was like I was like pre you know, I was like warmed up by being in the H mart.

Michelle Tea: Right.

Michelle Zauner: But yeah, I've like broken down a few times, like on the way or in Costco. Because it's just like a place that I associate with like family and like my mom being stoked on Costco and T.J. Maxx big-time mom zone and the Korean spa is another big-time mom zone and basically all of Korea. Everywhere. I just miss my mom so much. A lot of the times like I'll go to H Mart on a holiday or like go to the Korean spa and just like sit in one of the like warm salt rooms or whatever and like let myself have that moment and in some way that's like my time to, you know, think about her and like, let myself sit in it for a while. 

Michelle Tea: Yeah. Have you ever had, like, a spiritual or mystical kind of feeling experience while listening to music? 

Michelle Zauner: A really special thing that happened was I got to play — two times, actually — I got to play shows in Seoul, Korea, which is where I was born and where my mom grew up. And when we were there, the booking, like the promoter, took us out to this really cool bar and played us this song by Kim Jung Mi called Haenim. And it's this really lovely song written by this man named Shin Joong-hyun, who's kind of like the Phil Spector of Korea. He, like, wrote a lot of songs for, like, girl groups in the 60s and like a lot of pop, you know, sort of psychedelic kind of hits and ... 

Michelle Tea: Wow. 

Michelle Zauner: Yeah. We all had this, like, really moving experience, like listening to this song. And then I told, you know, I was like out with my aunt and I was like, "Oh, have you heard of Shin Joong-hyun?" And she's like, "How do you know about him? Don't you know that like your mom and I used to, like, sing this song by The Pearl Sisters that he wrote?" 

Michelle Tea: Oh my god. 

Michelle Zauner: Yeah it was this, like, really nice way of, like, connecting, you know, it wasn't like the same song, but it was the same writer. And, you know, I had no idea that they used to sing this song together and it was a really nice way of, like, feeling connected to her and it felt very spiritual like moving moment. 

Michelle Tea: Yeah. I'm getting chills from that. I love that. Oh, music is so powerful. 

[Music]

Michelle Tea: Have you ever had your tarot cards read? 

Michelle Zauner: I have. I think we got like a Groupon once on tour where we brought someone — like the whole tour party got our tarot read.

Michelle Tea: Do you have anything that you want to ask about? Anything pressing or questions you want some clarity or guidance? 

Michelle Zauner: I guess I have a relationship in my life with like a family member. And I think it's like an unintentionally toxic relationship where I like don't blame the person for being that way but I struggle a lot with ... I am the kind of person that tends to, like, cut people out very quickly because I, I have so much fire that I don't have time, I don't have time for any kind of, like, toxic person. But this person is also like a, you know, has been a big part of my life. And even though I don't feel like I get anything positive out of them, I, I wonder how to move forward with that relationship, if it's something that, you know, I need to accept it's not positive for me and move on and cut it out of my life or if it's worth pursuing trying to work it out.

Michelle Tea: OK — the first thing I'll shuffle on is what would it look like for you to just kind of keep them in your life as is and just sort of, you know, almost like have it be an inside job, like, you know, having some boundaries about when you allow yourself to see them and stuff like that. But basically just accepting that they've got some problems and it manifests maybe in a little bit of toxicity and you can't change them. So we'll see what that looks like. I'm picking three cards. And then I'm shuffling, what would it look like for you to sort of invest more in the relationship and see if, like, are they able to hear some feedback? You know, like what's like a, what's the easiest, sort of softest piece of feedback you can offer them? And you can kind of stick your toes in it and see, like, are they responsive or are they able to hear some criticism or are they able to hear me? So I'm picking three cards on that. And then what would it look like if you're like, "You know, I just don't have room in my life, at least right now, you know, for this person and I just need to actually take some indefinite space from them." Like, who knows? Maybe I'll want it to be forever. Maybe it'll be for a year, maybe six months. But what would it look like if I actually just did not engage with this person for a while? Three cards on that. 

OK, so here's what it looks like to just sort of do the work almost internally to just be more accepting and, you know, also have good boundaries, like, you know, I can't handle them right now and I don't have to. So for that, you have the Six of Wands, which is called Victory. It's Mars in Leo. It's very nice. And then the Lust card, which is a really interesting card. It doesn't mean sexy time — although sometimes it does, but not in — not in this context, obviously. It's lust for life. You know, it's also a riff on the traditional Strength card in other tarot. Aleister Crowley gave it a different twist, but it still retains some of its root as Strength, which is a card about inner strength and like biting your tongue and sort of being like, "OK, part of me wants to, like, go off on this person, but I'm going to not let my animal self go on a rager, I'm going to kind of be more conscious." And then Ace of Disks, which is about a new beginning in the material world with a lot of good opportunity. So this actually looks good. This looks like something you can do. It's all about you shifting the way that you approach them, shifting your idea about them.  I mean, seeing them — not in a condescending way — but just seeing them as sort of like a sick person or a damaged person, you know? And it's like, yeah, you, you have to take care of yourself and make sure you're not interacting with them in a way that's compromising to you. But also, maybe being able to kind of have a sense of humor about it or I don't know. It does look like there's some mechanisms within you that you can play with. You can kind of toggle to get a different attitude towards this person and be able to have a relationship with you, with them. 

Now, let's see about actually talking to them. Knight of Cups. The Knight of Cups is definitely making a heartfelt offering, an offering from the heart. Success. The Six of Disks card. It's Moon in Taurus and that is a very beautiful card. And then another Ace. How interesting. Ace of Cups in this time, which is about a new emotional beginning. I think that it's very possible that you can talk to this person and be heard. Does that seem crazy? I don't know what the ... Are you like, "No way!" Like, I don't know. It seems like — it seems like I mean, the Knight of Cups is a Cancer card and Cancer is the sign that rules family and family bonds in the zodiac. So it's about making an offering from your heart. If you are able to allow yourself to be a little vulnerable and come to the person in a sincere way because you really want your relationship to be better and more authentic and more loving and if you just make this offer, I think you might be heard. Can I ask, is this relative, are they on your mom's side? Do they feel like a connection to her in any way? 

Michelle Zauner: Yeah, it's actually about my my dad, who I like haven't seen in…  

Michelle Tea: Oh, very connected to your mom.

Michelle Zauner: Yeah, it's uh, so he obviously had a relationship with my mom, yeah. But this is all like ringing pretty true to like what we've been working on. 

Michelle Tea: Oh I'm so glad.

So let's see what it looks like to kind of cut this person out. The Aeon, which is a riff on the Judgment card. This is a sun in Sagittarius card, it is the Sagittarian way, isn't it, to just be like, "Be gone with you." The Nine of Wands. It's also called Strength — and I had a feeling you were going to get a hard card with this one — it's, this is Indolence, the Indolence card. It's Eight of Cups. It's Saturn in Pisces. So it's like, it would haunt you. 

Michelle Zauner: That looks goth.

Michelle Tea: It is goth. It's very goth. I mean, Saturn is the gothest planet and Pisces is pretty goth sign, I think. So, yeah. I mean, what this is this is something that's been emotionally neglected. 

Michelle Zauner: Yeah. 

Michelle Tea: So what this means is like I mean, the Aeon is like, it's the Judgment card and it's about taking stock of the past so that you can set out on a new beginning. So it would be a major undertaking, like, you know, I've looked at this relationship and I've decided my resources are better spent elsewhere. It's what's necessary for some people. But I don't know that it is for you. This just looks like you're just ... it's gonna haunt you. It's about something being emotionally neglected. It looks like at the very least, you need to try and to know that you tried to better things with your dad. So it like looks like you both need to do your own internal work, right? Where you become a bit more accepting of him. I don't know whatever trauma is informing the way he behaves, you know, and just like, you know, understanding that and kind of cutting him a little bit of slack, getting a sense of humor about it, if possible. And also asking something of him at the same time, like not doing all the work, but also being like, "OK. And hey, like, I don't like this X, Y, and Z thing that you do, you know, I want to be closer to you and makes it hard to be close to you when you say that or do that." So that looks like a better route for you.

Michelle Zauner: Yeah definitely. 

Michelle Tea: Yeah. It looks like if you cut him out, you're ultimately going to end up back at these other avenues of having to figure out how to have him in your life. So. 

Michelle Zauner: Yeah, that's really interesting because I actually, I didn't, I haven't spoken to my father for almost a year. And we actually just, you know, one of the conditions that I had to start speaking to him again was for us to go to therapy. And I actually had been telling my therapist, like, I really don't think this is going to work, but I feel like I have to, like, do this in order to give myself permission to kind of cut this person out of my life. And it was surprising that, you know, while we haven't, like we haven't resolved anything really. And, you know, part of it made me angry that, like, I still have to compromise in order for this to work. It did make me feel like a big ball of anger was like released in me that was beneficial to not just like hold on to that resentment and like kind of like release it in some ways. So I feel a lot like chiller about it. 

Michelle Tea: That's great. 

Michelle Zauner: Even even though it feels like... Yeah. It just felt easier to, like, cut that person in my life and I did for a very long time. But it's, it's been surprisingly better to like kind of try to work it out in some ways, at least at the moment. 

[Music]

Michelle Tea: That’s big work, reckoning with resentment. I myself have a lineup of individuals that I argue with in my head every day. Some of it’s petty, some isn’t. If you’re looking for an edible magic tool to do some work around healing grudges, I would suggest rose. That flower just wants to bring more love into your heart — if not love for whoever is pissing you off, then love for yourself. I mean, sometimes fighting for yourself is an act of self-love, but sometimes putting the fight down is where the real self-care is. Rituals that involve water, which can be splashed in seltzer or a cup of tea, can help set intentions to evolve your resentments. And eating flowers is next-level magic. Yes?

Now, Rose isn’t the only edible substance that wants to lighten your load. Candy wants to help you recognize the glory of the present moment. 

Jared Gold: Candy is primordial. It is like it is beyond thought. It is just, it is just this magical tool that just interrupts everything in your life.

Michelle Tea: That’s Jared Gold a candy-maker who lives in Salt Lake City. When his ecstatic spiritual practice got mixed up with the magic of sugar, he realized he’d discovered a simple and delicious way to trigger a heightened sense of the present moment. He calls it the Candy Sutra, it’s a reference  to the Asian literary tradition of a short narratives that contains a transcendent truth. 

Jared Gold: I'll meet with people and I always say, oh, we need to have a Candy Sutra and you come over and have a Candy Sutra with you. And then it's like, well, what is that? And it's just like, well, it's the presentation and it's the consumption. And then really it's helping everyone monitor what's going on inside of them while they're doing it.

And a lot of times during a Candy Sutra with someone, you're just setting the candy in front of them, it starts in that moment. And as soon as they see it, your body's like, here it comes, here it comes. It's treat time. And so all the chemistry starts flowing. It's not the same for everybody. Some people don't like candy at all. It doesn't matter. It's just the concept of something eating something pleasurable. 

The original concept for the Candy Sutra is right now, I've got eight actual sutras within it and they all do something. I call them intent work. Other people might call them spells, it’s the same thing like an intent, setting your intention, you know, same thing through an altar, setting your intention. This is one for Daydream Allow. It is Chinese Mormon apricot Turkish delight. The concept for Daydream Allow, it's the first Candy Sutra, is to really get you to a point where you can allow Candy to interrupt your thoughts and just force you into presence with it. Candy is amazing that way. You know, everybody is like, I don't know how to be present. I don't know how to get control of my mind. Candy will do it for you. It's effortless. Once you know, you get your candy, you're sitting down for your kind of your ritual, I would say, or the sutra. And it has comes with a little card that reads off, here's how the spell works or what the intention is. And it really is getting people back to the point where they allow their minds to free wander and invent things around them, invent things for themselves without that nagging torture of your inner dialog, you know, it's just like setting free your own creativity. So I felt like it was a fitting first sutra for me. And they just kind of get more complicated and a little more difficult each time. 

I would say probably the most difficult is Peace Between Us is forgiving people. That's a lot of people don't want to forgive people. They're made up of their resentments for the world. And to let all that go, it's like, well, who am I when all that gets let gone? And it's like, you know, I've got a blue marzipan strawberry with your name on it and it'll walk you through that.

There's a really sweet one. Agogono Fofanah, it's called. This pink creature came to me in my dream and he was like cuddling me and holding me. He kept repeating this Agogono Fofanah, which is kind of gibberish like you would talk when you're talking to your dog, you know? And I realized he was like charging oxytocin with me. So Agogono Fofonah is just an oxytocin charge. It's just this the sweet pleasure, this kind of cloud, this vapor of comfort.

So oxytocin. It's these they're like caramel roasted almond little bee bees and they're coated in chocolate. And so they're a little bit chewy. But you know what? It could be anything. It could be an ice cream cone from McDonald's. Of course, my candy, it has that extra oomph because it I really focused the intent. I really have studied it, you know, but when you're doing it with yourself, when you're trying to lay your own oxytocin down, whatever you want, a tic-tac. Or a frozen burrito. I don't know what what's your thing, what's your kink? I don’t know.

I feel like I saw how dark the world was. I saw how frustrated people were. I saw nihilism come as a wave over everybody. And I was like, I am just going to lean into that wave.

[Music]

Michelle Tea: You know, I live with a six year old who has taken over an entire kitchen shelf with what he calls his “candy stash,” and that conversation has me feeling a lot better about his sugar obsession. Maybe my kid is just a sugar guru. Next I have one of those can-I-have-some-candy power struggles, I’m just going to join him. I love knowing that the tools for rituals are that close, that enacting them can be as simple as putting a Swedish Fish into my mouth, sitting down on the kitchen floor, and synching up with the present moment and all its really easily overlooked abundance. 

[Music]

Michelle Tea: Well, if this episode has got you feeling snack-y, as well as spiritually hungry, of course, I would like to take you out with a powerful spell that masquerades as a delicious bowl of popcorn. You don’t need a mortar or a pestle for it, but I do recommend you get yourself one, because nothing will make you feel as kitchen-witchy as grinding up herbs and spices with this very simple tool that’s been used by magical people for thousands of years. 

So into your mortar or whatever bowl you’re using, dump one teaspoon of garlic powder. Garlic has long been believed to ward off bad vibes, and we know it can ward off bacteria and fungus, so why not the evil eye, too? Next add a teaspoon of dried seaweed. I like dulse. Seaweed belongs to the realm of the emotions, so it’s great for love and desire, and making wishes, and that’s the theme of this spell. Next a half teaspoon salt for purity and protection, and then four whopping tablespoons of nutritional yeast. OK, if you have never eaten nutritional yeast before, then you have never been a lesbian, or a vegan, or a hippie. And also you’ve never known true culinary joy. I love this stuff. Yes, it smells like old feet but so does some of the world’s best cheeses. Don’t be scared of it, it’s worth it. 

Mix or pestle your ingredients together, while setting intentions around wishes for healthy, pure-hearted, affirming love. Now this can be for self-love, or it can summon a love affair. You can also use it to help you feel safe enough to conjure compassion for someone you’re having a hard time with. Or it can help you reckon with love-addict-y issues if you’ve got those. Focus your intentions while combining, and also while sprinkling it over your popcorn. Mindfully eat a few kernels. And finally, bring your ritual to the couch, switch on your favorite show, and enjoy.

[Music]

Michelle Tea: At the end of this episode, I’m thinking about how our senses can be conduits for mystical experiences. Through our sense of taste, we can transcend time. We can move into the past with memories triggered by childhood foods, we can connect with that deep, cultural love that lives in our hearts. Or we can use candy to hack the brain chemicals that sugar triggers, and enter into a space of hyper-mindfulness and healing. And by using common kitchen herbs, we can connect with the powers that magical people have imbued them with for centuries. When something as common and imperative as food is holy, it’s clear to me that our bodies were designed for magic. That our bodies are magic.

Thanks for devouring this extra-yummy episode. We hope you feel inspired to indulge in some delicious witchsnackery of your own. Bon appetit!

[Music]

Michelle Tea: Thanks for tuning into Your Magic. Make sure you follow us on Twitter and Instagram @thisisyourmagic. Subscribe right here on Spotify, just do what you have to stay connected. Also sign up for our newsletter at thisisyourmagic.com and get exclusive outtakes from our guests. You please email us at hello@thisisyourmagic.com because we want to be your friend. 

This episode was produced and edited by Molly Elizalde, Tony Gannon, and Raven Yamamoto. Production support came from Veronica Agard, Kristine Mar, and Vera Blossom. Our executive producers are Ben Cooley, myself, and Molly Elizalde. And our original theme music is by John Kimbrough. 

Join us next week for a psychedelic conversation with Alison Wonderland. Thank you for listening!